I am going to
discuss a new term –value trading in this post. It is a very interesting
concept and it was first mentioned by my good friend – arpit ranka. I cannot claim any originality on this
concept, but once it was mentioned by
arpit, I started thinking about it and found a lot of validity and relevance to
my style of investing.
What is value
trading? (my definition)
Value trading
is best described as buying a stock with the expectation of selling the same
(hopefully with a gain) in a short period of time based on the realization of a
single or multiple triggers. This trigger can be fundamental in nature such as
normalization of sales/ profit margins (from a temporary low), business event
such as launch of a new product or new capacity or change in the business
environment for the better such as moving from extreme to moderate pessimism .
In addition
to the fundamental issues, the trigger could be technical in nature such as
short term overselling of a stock due to unexpectedly poor results or some
temporary event such as elections which do not really impact the fundamentals
of the business
In all these
cases, one is expecting that the trigger will occur in the short term and the
stock price will get a quick bounce (10%+) and one would be able to exit with a
nice little profit
How does it
differ from value investing
The above
definition may sound a lot like value investing and I have been guilty of
mixing the two for all these years. However as I think back, I have come to
realize that they are not strictly the same and confusing the two can actually
be harmful (as I will explain later in the post)
If one
invests with a long term horizon in
mind, then it is critical to have a good idea of the intrinsic value of the
company. In addition this intrinsic value should increase over time, if one is
to make above average returns in the long run.
So in
effect, one is playing a short term trigger in the case of value trading versus
betting on the business in the case of value investing.
Examples of
value trading
Lets look at
some example I have posted in the past and look at which bucket these ideas
fall into
I would call this ideas as a value trading
idea as this company is in a highly cyclical industry. At the time of buying
the stock, I was expecting that the downturn in the capital goods industry
would not be deep and the fundamentals of the company and its stock price would soon bounce back.
The
trigger has yet to happen and as result the stock has slid further since the
time I wrote about it.
I
started looking closely at this company in mid 2008 and by the end of the year
the bottom had fallen out of the commercial vehicle market (the company stopped
production for a month in dec 2008 to reduce the inventory). I purchased the
stock in early 2009 at highly depressed prices.
The
trigger – normalization of commercial vehicle sales happened quite quickly
towards the end of 2009 and the stock turned out to be a four bagger.
In
both cases, I expected a normalization of
the fundamental performance and a bounce back in the stock price. In one
case it happened faster than expected resulting in a large gain and in the
other case the downturn has been deeper than expected and hence the stock price
continues to languish
The
company is a no.2 player in the battery industry and operates in a close
duopoly. The key insight in this idea is that the company is expanding its
competitive advantage (brand and distribution) and also benefiting from migration of demand from the un-organized to
organized sector
I
would tag this as a value investing idea as i don’t expect a specific trigger
other than the fact that the company is improving its competitive position and
hence should see an improvement in profitability and growth.
The first two
examples I have discussed should bring out the following key point – In a value
trading idea, the intrinsic value may not expanding or could be declining too.
However the stock is undervalued and a set of triggers could close the gap with
the intrinsic value. You can call this mode of investing as deep value
investing or graham style investing too.
The last
example of amara raja is more of a buffett style, high quality stock where although one is expecting the gap with the intrinsic
value to close, the bigger gains come from an increase in the value of the
company itself.
The differentiating
factors
The two modes
of investing differ on several factors. The first factor is time – Time works
against you in the case of value trading. If the trigger happens quickly, the price rises quickly to the fair value and
one can exit with a nice little profit. On the other hand if trigger gets
delayed, then the overall returns may remain the same, but the annualized
return is much lower.
In case of
value investing, time works in your favor. As the company continues to grow its
intrinsic value, the stock price should hopefully follow it (some times in
spurts) and thus the idea becomes a buy and hold kind of idea.
The second
factor where these two approaches differ is the nature of the business. The
value trading approach works better in commodity and cyclical industries. If one can catch the
bottom of the cycle and bet on a tier 2 or tier 3 company in the sector, then
the gains are very high when the cycle swings back to a normalized level. At
the same time, one needs to also ensure that the stock is sold once the cycle
has turned .
Value
investing approach works where the economics of the business is good and the
company has a competitive advantage. In such cases, if one buys the stock at
reasonable valuations, then returns are good over a long period of time
Do not mix
the drinks !
I would say
that value investing or long term investing should occupy a larger portion of the
portfolio. If however you have the time and energy to look for value trading kind of ideas and can play them
well, the portfolio can get an extra
boost from time to time
The danger is
really from mixing the two approaches as I have done in the past. I have
bought trading kind of ideas and held on
to it for a long time (assuming it was a long term investment). In such the
cases the absolute returns came through, though the annualized returns were mediocre
due to a delay in the key triggers.
The correct
approach would be to keep in mind the nature of the idea (trading v/s
investing), identify the triggers and the time it would take for the same to
play out. If the triggers change or get delayed , then one should exit a value
trading kind of idea. In contrast in a value investing idea, time is working in
your favor and temporary hiccups are sometimes a good time to add to the
position. In all such cases, one should just sit tight with the position.
I would like to add SREI as another trade. Interest rate will start falling and rs will appreciating resulting into forex gain(at least no forex loss) and decreasing interest and increasing profit and EPS
ReplyDeleteRohit – In the Value Investing book authored by Prof Greenwald, he talks about buying companies at a discount to NAV whenever NAV < EPV. Now if you think about it, NAV will be less than EPV whenever return on capital < cost of capital. And if return on capital is less than cost of capital, the intrinsic value of such a company will be on the decline. At first it boggled my mind as to why anyone would buy a company (even if it be with a margin of safety) where the intrinsic value is on the decline. And the more I thought about it, I realized that the only way to play such a situation is to identify the triggers that will help close the gap between the current market price and the NAV and hope that the trigger plays out quickly. This is also a bit of an odd situation, because the longer you hold such a company, you have to revise your intrinsic value downwards every year....a very funny situation where intrinsic value goes down to meet market price. Just thought I’d mention this....your blog post on value trading bears some resemblance to this idea (in my mind).
ReplyDeleteJoseph
Joseph
I should have added (in my previous post) that the intrinsic value will be on the decline if such a company (where NAV<EPV) is still focused on growth (a common curse for many such companies).
ReplyDeleteJoseph
This is a great post. I actually have been thinking hard on this and trying to marry "the buy and hold" with this "catching the cycle" thing. I was unable to reconcile between the two. This post gives some kind of clarity on how to think about it.
ReplyDeleteHi Rohit,
ReplyDeleteLong time, hope you are doing well. In this context, I had read a good book - http://www.amazon.com/Active-Value-Investing-Range-Bound-Markets/dp/0470053151
I find this somewhat akin to an arbitrage, which is what deep value investing themes are at the end of the day. I think Prof. Bakshi's thoughts on combining deep value investing with a catalyst, along with using technical indicators like moving averages and stochastics probably a better approach if one wants to do this kind of trading. Again, I know you are not very keen on the use of technical indicators, but in a Bayesian sense they can be used as an additional conditional probability step towards buying or selling...at least I am exploring these kind of thoughts.
Do let me know if you have any insights.
Best, Vidyanshu.
Hi Rohit
ReplyDeleteThanks for another good post. I realised the importance of short term investment (I prefer this term over value trading) after missing stocks like Manappuram Finance even when it was trading at P/BV multiple of 0.8x. The only thing which was stopping me was my belief that gold prices currently are in bubble stage. But I failed to realise that entire de-rating of stock was because of overblown concerns of RBI regulation and loan growth slowing down materially and secondly I do not like to invest in banks/NBFCs because of inherent leverage.
I agree with the overall theme of the post but disagree on one point that even stocks where intrinsic value is declining are fit for short term investment. I think any investment where one feels value is going to decline in future rather than rising, is not fit for investment at any price. In such cases one may get stuck in times of market crash. A better approach might be to invest in stocks 1) Which are not suited for long term investment as per one’s philosophy (for me it’s Commodity stocks, Banks, Pharma, Regulated sectors like power, fertilisers, etc) 2) Share price has currently taken huge beating because of overblown concerns 3)and stock is available is ultra-cheap valuation.
In summary I think it’s better to stick to value investing principles every time irrespective of tenure except in the case of special situations.
Hi anon
ReplyDeleteinterest rate as a trigger is a very dicey variable to play. if you are confident of the interest rate drop ...buy long dated debt funds or directly 10 yr GSECs
rgds
rohit
Hi joseph
ReplyDeleteyou hit the nail on the head. as my friend neeraj marathe has told me several times ...these are dirt cheap stocks you buy and wait till they become just about cheap, and then sell and move on
personally, after doing this over time i am tiring of it. too much work and headache for a few % extra returns
rgds
rohit
hi pradeep
ReplyDeletewell you can marry the two ..if you find a industry which is moderately cyclical ...like capital goods industry. buy a very good company at bottom of the cycle and then hold it ...the inital return will from the bounce and long term return will be from the business itself
rgds
rohit
Hi vidyanshu
ReplyDeletelong time ....good to see you back :)
i have been exploring these kind of options and may be once i semi-retire and do this investment thingy full time will do it more
for the time i have dabbled a bit in this and now kind of pulling back as it is too much work and not enough upside. however will keep doing oportunistic stuff like the globus spirit play once in a while ....but unlikely to be a serious component
rgds
rohit
Hi anil
ReplyDeletefirst ...i need to post your comment you sent via email ...let me try to do that
you have a point in focussing on the best ideas ..atleast for the core portfolio. however once in a while there are opportunistic investments which can be made...though part time investor should stay away as they dont have the time and energy to manage it
on companies in slow decline, there are cases where even that works out if the management is taking cash out and giving it back to the shareholder
in addition, in some cases, the price gets so cheap that the biz is almost for free..in such cases, you can buy it and wait for the market to reprice it.
ofcourse all this is very time consuming ...a lot times just buy a good company and let it compound. less headache
The biggest risk with 'value trading' is of taking the 'value' out of it. It requires so much effort and diligence that one might easily get into sub-par ideas, especially in range-bound fairly-valued markets like ours as of now.
ReplyDeleteI entered into stocks like IFCI, Reliance Capital early this year. Also made good profits but it was a pain nonetheless.
Tried to do the same with Indraprastha Gas and Gujrat Gas later this year. Did not make anything though they were much better picks.
Sold and feeling relieved that my portfolio is in better shape now. Though GGC going up 10% pained a lot, but that's another lesson - when you buy to make quick profit, you may also end up selling without making that profit (buy for non-value reason and sell for non-value reason).
So it's always a choice between continuous activity and almost hands-off approach. Quantum LTE Mutual Fund does the former very well and I feel it's justified mainly for such entities only. Definitely not for individuals with other full-time assignments.
Hi Rohit,
ReplyDeleteU have a nice blog, I recently came across this and have enjoyed reading it.
Ur investment ideas have lot of depth.
Regarding Novartis, how do you see the recent Glivec court case coming? As far as I have been reading around it seems like a lot depends on this case result for Novartis future launches and investments in India. I have a lot of confidence in the Parent Novartis AG.Mega-pharmas like Novartis have the advantage of being able to afford some of the brightest scientists and the most cutting-edge oncology research money can buy. They are working on products of the future that will redefine the medical scenario.The race is who invents the future medicines first making these companies filthy rich. This is 1 of the most important factors giving me confidence about Novartis India. The de-listing buzz has also dettled down now in the price and the CMP will remain subdued until the court case is out I guess. How do u read about Novartis now, or have u found something else to replace novartis. Are you still holding it?
@harmit
ReplyDeleteit reminds me of the post you shared back in oct-11 about tata steel's liabilities. From investing point of view one wouldnt/shouldnt be keen on buying into a company with such a big pension plan exposure. however, from trading perspective one could have entered it given the hole in pension pot "tends" to grow over a longer time period. plus how many people would firstly identify that risk and secondly, stay away from the script given all the market chatter pressuring them to trade? so "maybe" it could have been a value trading opprotunity give it takes a while for market to bring such things to the fore!!